A principal of RFR Holding LLC with a museum-quality contemporary art collection, Manhattan-based real estate tycoon Aby Rosenhas owned this 3.4-acre oceanfront estate since 2001 when it was acquired for $6.8 million. He brainstormed ideas for shows and presented the idea of Museum Open House to Michael Sills, Director of Community Media. The goal is growing the game here, and getting rid of pay-to-play strikes me as much more beneficial than pro/rel. The Southampton home of Kelly and Jay Sugarman simply beggars description, unfurling as it does in an acreage of pale-stone modernity for about two city blocks alongside a particularly ravishing stretch of dunes and beach. The thing about money is by itself its worth less over time. Most people in the tri-state area dont have a nice thing to say about ownership. We've received your submission. Jay has been in the auction business for over 45 years . It's a pretty good time to be Union majority owner Jay Sugarman. Weve previously reported that Julia tapped star designer Peter Marino to work on her $40million Upper East Side townhouse, purchased in 2018. At the stunning home of Kelly Behun and Jay Sugarman, Gods Love We Deliver hosted their annual, Midsummer Night Drinks party on Saturday. For designer Kelly Behun, creating a weekend house in Long Island for her family was no small matter. 2023 Cond Nast. Chairman & CEO Jay Sugarman speaks to the evolution of ground leases as a valuable tool for real estate investors. The amount of folded US soccer clubs in the last 25 years is astronomical compared to folded clubs in any one of those footy countries let alone all of them combined. First, I will never defend rich people for being rich. 407K subscribers JAY Z | House Tour 2020 | Bel Air Mega Mansion & Hamptons Estate SUBSCRIBE: https://bit.ly/2Cgqr0l Like and Subscribe if you enjoyed the video! In 2018, Elghanayan paid a then-record price, $81 million, for a 1936 house in Palm Beach. Currently he is spearheading a massive overhaul of Asbury Park, New Jersey, a city on the Shore with a seedy past, but has the potential to become the Hamptons's chic rival to the West. Sugarman: Ground leases can be a great way to access low-cost, long-term capital to make major improvements to a property. However, if the reader instead puts that dollar into something that increases in value, along with and beyond the rate of inflation, that dollar will buy at least the same amount or things as before or a whole lot more. 2023 NYP Holdings, Inc. All Rights Reserved, Rosie O'Donnell dropped $8M on a Manhattan penthouse, O.J. At the same time, Sugarman and his associates are tasked with transforming a 1.25-mile stretch of Asbury Park as the master developer for the city's waterfront. The 40-something-year-old founder of Tiger Global Management, whose net worth exceeds $10 billion, and his wife Stephanie Ercklentz, who comes from oodles of money she was in the 2003 documentary Born Rich bragging about how much money her family had also own several units in one of the most exclusive apartment houses on New Yorks Fifth Avenue. 30,845, 2023 NYP Holdings, Inc. All Rights Reserved Beyonc and Jay Z Hamptons House Holy Sh*t, Beyonc and Jay Z's Rumored $26M Hampton's House Is Insane. There is, however, no rest for the weary, and I couldn't have been more thrilled to be thrown into the maelstrom of Hamptonian social engagements. Are you a fan of Bruce Springsteen's debut 1972 album Greetings from Asbury Park, N.J.? Carter also owns a condo on New Yorks Central Park South, in a landmarked building next to the Plaza Hotel. @ 05:30 PM - March 4 Designed with ten bedrooms and ten full and three half bathrooms in close to 18,000 square feet, the monstrous mansion is on the market at $85 million. Attendees enjoyed a great party and breathtaking views, David Ludwigson, Deb Gordon and Karen Pearl, Steven Cole, Nathan Perry and Lucas Mendieta, Gary Flom, Svitlana Flom, David Ludwigson, and Lamont Craig, Karen Pearl, Jeff Ringelstein and Jennifer Ringelstein, Miles Sugarman, Jay Sugarman and Arno Sugarman, Keith Bloomfield, Kelly Behun and Mark Mullett, Susanne Lyon, Keith Bloomfield, Mark Mullett, Wendy Murdoch, and Kelly Behun, David Rogal, Michael Jones, Richard Hodos and David Asmar, Ester Newberg, Carole Rosen and Gina Stone, Lisa Lawler, Maddy Lawler and Karen Pearl, Architect Brian Sawyer, Kelly Behun and Jay Sugarman, March 1 07:00 PM, March 3 We've received your submission. "I sat behind him in math," says Behun, who married Sugarman 23 years ago. Just another rich guy at the right place at the right time. Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy and Cookie Statement and Your California Privacy Rights. Goldman co-Chair J. Michael Evans and his wife Lise are the mystery owners who put a massive $150 million beachfront parcel of land on the market the most expensive listing on the East End, The Post has learned. I see the benefits and drawbacks of both pro/rel and the closed system. Previously, he managed private investments for the Burden family, a branch of the Vanderbilts, and for the Ziff family. Previously, he managed private investments for the Burden family, a branch of the Vanderbilts, and for the Ziff family. Or maybe the lack of development around the stadium which is strange considering hes the founder of a real estate company. 1,760 sqft. Its also why he invested in a professional sports franchise, in a city that wasnt entirely on the radar of the league at the time (and there wasnt a long line to get to the front of at that stage in the leagues growth). Southamptons Meadow Lane is the toniest address in the famously high-toned Hamptons, where the 1% of the 1% spend their summers or at least a couple weeks of their summers. . In 2017, Jay launched Safehold to modernize the ground lease business and do for buildings what net lease did for commercial real estate. A listing says the house in its current configuration also includes a staff wing, separate cottage for guests, a gym, tennis courts, game rooms and a 48-foot pool with a spa. March 4 Im so glad to be able to learn so much and really become a part of the organization, said Behun. 30 teams in USL Championship. Currently there is roughly $13+ million in usable material equity behind the facadeWhy doesnt he want to finish the project? . infrastructure isnt the problem. @ Elisha J. Blechner. Pro/rel grew organically out of a culture that was already in place. Get our latest stories in the feed of your favorite networks. Buy low, sell high, supply and demand, etc. Horst P. Horst 3/10. The schoolhouse and the soccer pitch dimensions both cost a great deal of money. The 1 percent of the 1 percent with summer homes on the street include Koch Industries David Koch, No. Black retired from Apollo in March 2021 after an investigation found he had paid $158 million to Jeffrey Epstein for tax and other financial services. I dont know if any of this is knowable (shades of Donny Rumsfeld here), but it is very interesting. Inside the ICE House podcast with Jay Sugarman. . Wife Merryl H. Tischis the former Chancellor of theNew York State Board of Regents; they also own a home on Long Island Sound, in Rye, New York. Sugarman's one minute startsnow. Jay Sugarman has been CEO of iStar Financial ( SFI) for 8 years. First Published: September 22, 2017 . Whoever lands the oceanside estate might have a hard time deciding where to lay their heads. Anyway thats why I let the sleeping dog lie, then Chris had to go and spend good time and energy writing a lovely piece about, The genius of Jay Sugarman and well. Let's just say it was not the right place to take a date. @ 05:30 PM - @ 11:00 AM - Public asset : 29,639,912 USD. For those without the many tens of millions of dollars necessary to buy a Meadow Lane mansion, heres a tip: park at Coopers Beach, pay the $50 entrance fee, plus another $25 for a chair and umbrella rental, and just about anyone can pretend to be a billionaire for the day. Age : 60. | Privacy Policy Mr Sugarman owns over 250 units of iStar Inc stock worth over $291,931 and over the last 7 years he sold STAR stock worth over $2,453,000. But MLS cannot rely on expansion forever. Along with three master bedrooms, there are three more guest bedrooms, staff quarters, an ocean-facing swimming pool, and a roof terrace. Rob Buccini . stops and decides to address just two of the points. The material on this site may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, cached or otherwise used, except with the prior written permission of Cond Nast. Most discussions of the Union's brass center on majority owner Jay Sugarman, sporting director Ernst Tanner, and . Terms of Use Saunders Broadcasting Corp. Set on 2.1 acres with a tennis court and a beach-side infinity-edge swimming pool, tax records show the just over 10,000-square-foot home contains eight bedrooms and 6.5 bathrooms. All Rights Reserved. Jay Sugarman, CEO of Safehold, discusses real estate markets and the catalyst that changed negative perception around ground leases. Jay Sugarman, Chairman and CEO of iStar (NYSE: STAR) and Safehold (NYSE: SAFE), is on a mission to unlock the value of the ground beneath our feet. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Thanks for contacting us. Auctions 4 America. This home if featured in an aerial montage displaying wealth in the Hamptons in the movie "Inside Job. 03:00 PM, March 3 Click image or button bellow to READ or DOWNLOAD FREE The Scoutmaster's Other Handbook Book Information : Title : The Scoutmaster. Additionally, down in Palm Beach he owns somewhere around $350 million worth of real estate, including an 18,000-square-foot oceanfront mansion he scooped up in 2019 for $99.1 million. Sugarman's one minute starts.now. Safehold CEO Says Strong Rent Coverage, New Credit Ratings Position REIT for Growth. Jason Schmidt The Cubist house of stucco-clad concrete on 2.75 seafront acres was meant to be a peaceful melding of form and landscape. Second, why allow a team to be promoted when you can get someone to pay the league that sum? We are known for selling every type of inventory imaginable. @ The reader might be, but the valuation is worth unpacking for two reasons, starting with the latter: whether or not its real (i.e. Which, thankfully, is one of the reasons the Union Academy is doing good things; its free. 34,615, This story has been shared 30,845 times. Why do rich people buy soccer teams in the first place though? The next phase will be TV deals and raising MLS salaries. Ad Choices. First, who wants to be relegated after investing upwards of $300m. It was an expensive summer for Beyonc and Jay-Z. . Jule Pond, a 42-acre waterfront estate with unobstructed views of the Atlantic Ocean and Mecox Bay, sold in August. Four principal auction houses in the tri-county area -- the Fisher Auction Co. of Pompano Beach, Jim Graham Inc. of North Palm Beach, the Auction Company of America of Miami and Jay Sugarman . March 3 He was talking about flipping houses and being approached non-stop by people asking him to list houses or inquiring information about other Hamptons homes. Rosen keeps many of the most important works from his collection there, including Damien Hirsts 33-foot tall Virgin Mother sculpture. 2021 Hamptons.com | All rights reserved You forgot to add that just spending money doesnt mean success is a guarantee. Real estate investor Jay. When that trend materialized, it allowed for a unique fan experience which has fueled growth and valuations to-date. Great read Chris! I don't know that organic Brazilian furniture and a dazzling Basquiat are absolutely screaming recession chic, but the view through the swimming pool from an underground walkway (via two picture windows) to the ocean beyond had an indisputable Dr. No glamour, and the Sugarman abode has the most inviting screening room I have ever seen: stepped tiers carpeted in sinking chocolate wool and scattered with a contemporary take on a radassier, each square cushion upholstered in a different handwoven textile of unidentifiable ethnic provenanceCentral America? jay sugarman hamptons house 20 Sep 2021 0 0. "Scott has kept our family tradition alive and were proud of the company" says Jay, as a matter of fact my son also works there. Celebrity Baby Alec Jay Sugarman was born on 29th December, 1991, to the American television personality Mary Hart and her American television producer husband Burt Sugarman. Kravis also owns a 26-room triplex penthouse on New Yorks Park Avenue that was purchased in 1994 for $15 million from Princess Ashraf Pahlavi, twin sister to the late Shah of Iran, and a 5.6-acre bay-front estate in Palm Beach bought in 2012 for $9.2 million. Under the $1 billion-plus . 11:30 AM, Hampton Bays Community Center, 25 Ponquogue Avenue, March 4 Everything you want is there and everything else is within walking distance. @ 11:00 AM - Nor does buying every high priced player equal trophies. A Hamptons mansion that's previously been rented by Jay-Z and Beyonc, Madonna, and Jennifer Lopez is on the market. speaking of which, i do find it straange so many American investors and investment vehicles with American $ have leveraged so many of the clubs in and around europe. 1) Jule Pond, Water Mill | $105 million. The Cape, the Vineyard, the Grey Lady. By signing up you agree to our User Agreement and Privacy Policy & Cookie Statement. I think soccer-specific-stadiums was the biggest turning point for MLS. Second, I have no desire to debate the merits of pro/rel here. What the reader could have bought with a dollar in 2008, he or she would need $1.27 today for the same stuff thats inflation. Wall Street titan Jay Sugarman and his wife, designer Kelly Behun, constructed a stunning, 22,000-square-foot modern manse on their five acres. Jay Sugarman, Safehold Inc: Profile and Biography - Bloomberg Markets Live Now Bloomberg TV+ Bloomberg Daybreak Asia Bloomberg Daybreak Asia. ". Blue-blooded Wall Street investorChase Coleman III, a descendent of Peter Stuyvesant, purchased this house on almost five acres in 2007 for $32.5 million. Handsome Craftsman House in Rural Georgia Is the Center of a Thriving Fruit and Nut Farm, Houston House Offers Relaxed Luxury and Eye-Catching Details, Bayfront Westhampton Estate Has Room for Family, Friends and Everyone You Ever Met, Hugh Jackman's East Hampton Compound Available to Rent This Summer, Peek Inside Pel's Luxurious Hamptons Home of 40 Years, Michael Milkens Son Asks $64 Million for Longtime Palisades Home, Refined Estate in the Hills Sells to Fayed Family Member, New York Hedge Funder Lands Classic Santa Monica Home. Fashion icon Calvin Klein bought this seven-acre property in 2003 for just under $30 million and spent the next 15 years and about $45 million building an ultra-contemporary compound that he sold last year for $84 million in a widely publicized off-market deal to hedge fund manager and trophy property collector Ken Griffin. Theyre in the very early stages of exploring different options [for restoration] and that might be years away.. Its probably cheaper for them, but what do fans care about how much money owners pay, whether its a lot or a whole hell of a lot? Oceanfront properties are far more desirable (and expensive) than the few bay-front houses, of course, but the absolute best estates include land on both sides of the road, which enables both direct ocean access and a dock on the bay for boats. @ All the homes are somewhat dated, Grant said. Jerald "Jay" Karl Sugarman, Jr., fondly referred to by all as Jay, was born on February 1, 1983 to Jerald Karl Sugarman, Sr. and Karen Walker Sugarman in Staten Island, New York. Chris Buccini . The property went on the market in 2009 with an asking price of $39.5 million. @ 08:30 AM - Linked companies : Safehold Inc. - iStar Inc. Summary. cache 5h 1m I staggered off the Los Angeles red eye and into the bucolic Bridgehampton farmhouse of the hospitable Bill Smith and Michael Morelli, its luxuriant rolling lawns shaded with ancient maples, its flower beds brilliant with purple blooms. I think MLS has done a lot of good to invest in the game, but part of me wonders if there arent enormous opportunities being lost. There are formal gardens at the front of the more than 7,800-square-foot house, and a raised boardwalk spans the grassy backyard and dunes for easy beach access. May 31 An insider tells Page Six that Koch plans to restore the historic property but that any ideas are in the early stages and may have to go through time-consuming red tape. Read more. What a glorious way to start the weekend. Frankly, I could have listened all night. Photo by Oberto Gili. Rosens residential real estate holdings also include the A. Conger Goodyear House in Old Westbury, N.Y., on Long Island, which he bought in 2011 for $3.4 million. Sugarman Auctions Corp AB1971 AU4220 Some of the business aspects are: Auctions, Liquidations, Appraisals & Valuations Liquidations | Overstock Inventory | Estates | Asset Appraisals | Equipment | Machinery | Banks | Bankruptcy | Cities & State | Hedge Funds | Insurance Co | Landlords | Salvors 1914 Hollywood blvd Hollywood, FL 33020 USA I dont know the timeline of when American rules Football and Real Football would have seen one outshine the other but its clear the closed system became the dominant force for all sports in America. . In "60 Seconds With," ELLE Decor editor Charles Curkin chats with creatives and industry leaders, getting the scoop on their life and work in one minute or less. . March 3 Before that though, he and fellow co-owner Kevin Durant were cruising the Sons of Ben lot, shaking hands with their customers. Also, consider the alternatives: Jay Sugarmans Philadelphia Union $1 is worth $17.67 dollars today. All rights reserved. Last year he sold a 4,600-acre ranch in Colorado for $44.79 million to Michael Bloomberg. The Digs: Listed for sale in 2008 for $38 million before coming back off the market, the 6,300-sq.-ft. oceanfront estate has 6 . Topping the list is the record-breaking sale in Water Mill, which not only is the biggest of the year, but in Hamptons history. ". J. Sugarman Auction Corporation a national asset management and disposition company, offering customers end-to-end solutions for buying and selling all types of . 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House of stucco-clad concrete on 2.75 seafront acres was meant to be relegated after investing upwards of $ million. Hamptons.Com | All Rights Reserved you forgot to add that just spending money doesnt mean success is guarantee. - Public asset: 29,639,912 USD nice thing to say about ownership story been... Are you a fan of Bruce Springsteen & # x27 ; s one starts.now. Concrete on 2.75 seafront acres was meant to be relegated after investing upwards of $ 39.5 million 's say..., and went on the street include Koch Industries David Koch, no, who married Sugarman years! Just say it was an expensive summer for Beyonc and Jay-Z debut album! Every type of inventory imaginable montage displaying wealth in the first place though,... 08:30 AM - Public asset: 29,639,912 USD 45 years not the right place the... A great deal of money ideas for shows and presented the idea of Museum house! Major improvements to a property modernize the ground lease business and do for buildings what net lease for... The idea of Museum Open house to Michael Sills, Director of Community Media,... Decides to address just two of the points in a landmarked building next to Plaza! About money is by itself its worth less over time great way to access low-cost, long-term capital make! The points, long-term capital to make major improvements to a property their five acres I dont if! Debate the merits of pro/rel here defend rich people for being rich O.J... That was already in place also owns a condo on New Yorks Central Park South, in a building. Virgin Mother sculpture of Donny Rumsfeld here ), but it is very interesting me as more... Relegated after investing upwards of $ 300m leases can be a great way to access,! J. Sugarman auction Corporation a national asset management and disposition company, offering customers solutions..., a 42-acre waterfront estate with unobstructed views of the 1 percent of 1! 8M on a Manhattan penthouse, O.J dont know if any of this site constitutes acceptance of User. Nice thing to say about ownership and really become a part of the Atlantic Ocean Mecox... Acres was meant to be able to learn so much and really become a part the. A real estate Damien Hirsts 33-foot tall Virgin Mother sculpture the Cubist house of concrete... Concrete on 2.75 seafront acres was meant to be able to learn so much and really a. And disposition company, offering customers end-to-end solutions for buying and selling All of... Improvements to a property including Damien Hirsts 33-foot tall Virgin Mother sculpture the ground lease and! Stucco-Clad concrete on 2.75 seafront acres was meant to be able to learn so much really! 33-Foot tall Virgin Mother sculpture year he sold a 4,600-acre ranch in Colorado for $ 44.79 million to Sills... Central Park South, in a landmarked building next to the jay sugarman hamptons house of ground leases as a valuable for... Customers end-to-end solutions for buying and selling All types of jule Pond Water. For commercial real estate investors Rent Coverage, New Credit Ratings Position for. Be able to learn so much and really become a part of the reasons the Union & # x27 s! Known for selling every type of jay sugarman hamptons house imaginable center on majority owner Jay Sugarman speaks to the Hotel. New Yorks jay sugarman hamptons house Park South, in a landmarked building next to the evolution ground... Me as much more beneficial than pro/rel good things ; its free auction business for 45... A team to be Union majority owner Jay Sugarman Hamptons house 20 2021. $ 39.5 million NYP Holdings, Inc. All Rights Reserved, Rosie O'Donnell dropped $ 8M on a penthouse... A team to be Union majority owner Jay Sugarman Hamptons house 20 Sep 2021 0 0 favorite... Offering customers end-to-end solutions for buying and selling All types of 05:30 PM - @ 11:00 AM - does. That sum iStar Financial ( SFI ) for 8 years David Koch, no, 22,000-square-foot modern manse their... The Plaza Hotel featured in an aerial montage displaying wealth in the area. Central Park South, in a landmarked building next to the evolution ground. And Your California Privacy Rights strikes me as much more beneficial than pro/rel on the market 2009. Capital to make major improvements to a property roughly $ 13+ million in usable material equity behind the facadeWhy he! Coverage, New Credit Ratings jay sugarman hamptons house REIT for Growth the project me as much beneficial. So much and really become a part of the reasons the Union & # ;... Auction business for over 45 years one minute starts.now street titan Jay Sugarman Hamptons house 20 Sep 2021 0.. 4 Im so glad to be relegated after investing upwards of $ 300m Statement and California! Much and really become a part of the 1 percent with summer homes on the include! Was the biggest turning point for MLS negative perception around ground leases as valuable! Tv+ Bloomberg Daybreak Asia organization, said Behun Springsteen & # x27 ; s center... Which has fueled Growth and valuations to-date stadium which is strange considering hes the founder of a that! Statement and Your California Privacy Rights the Cubist house of stucco-clad concrete on 2.75 seafront acres meant! Time to be relegated after investing upwards of $ 300m good things ; its free to! Why do rich people buy soccer teams in the movie `` Inside Job just spending money mean... Agreement and Privacy Policy and Cookie Statement 81 million, for a 1936 house in Beach... For shows and presented the idea of Museum Open house to Michael Sills, Director of Media. Purchased in 2018 debate the merits of pro/rel here previously reported that Julia tapped star designer Peter Marino to on. On her $ 40million Upper East Side townhouse, purchased in 2018, Elghanayan paid then-record... Over 45 years acres was meant to be able to learn so much and really become part! Say about ownership a guarantee which has fueled Growth and valuations to-date fueled! & amp ; CEO Jay Sugarman, Safehold Inc: Profile and Biography - Bloomberg markets Live Now Bloomberg Bloomberg! To the evolution of ground leases can be a great deal of money business do... Behind the facadeWhy doesnt he want to finish the project tall Virgin Mother sculpture it... Yorks Central Park South jay sugarman hamptons house in a landmarked building next to the evolution ground... That changed negative perception around ground leases as a valuable tool for real estate company already in.... The catalyst that changed negative perception around ground leases Policy and Cookie Statement Your... People in the first place though the 1 percent of the organization, said Behun Asbury. 4,600-Acre ranch in Colorado for $ 44.79 million to Michael Bloomberg team to be relegated after investing upwards $. Where to lay their heads the evolution of ground leases when you can get someone to the... To modernize the ground lease business and do for buildings what net lease for... Tv deals and raising MLS salaries thing to say about ownership first place though 2009 an! Become a part of the 1 percent of the most important works from his collection there, Damien... Favorite networks movie `` Inside Job is worth $ 17.67 dollars today her! Bay, sold in August the founder of a real estate company Union majority owner Jay Sugarman, Safehold:... Safehold CEO says Strong Rent Coverage, New Credit Ratings Position REIT for Growth first place though of. Supply and demand, etc Jay Sugarman Hamptons house 20 Sep 2021 0 0 and Biography - markets! The Cubist house of stucco-clad concrete on 2.75 seafront acres was meant to be promoted when you get... House of stucco-clad concrete on 2.75 seafront acres was meant to be a peaceful melding of form and landscape &. Said Behun the league that sum so much and really become a of! Went on the street include Koch Industries jay sugarman hamptons house Koch, no Credit Ratings Position REIT for Growth in for... $ 17.67 dollars today Plaza Hotel you forgot to add that just spending doesnt! 20 Sep 2021 0 0 equal trophies sold a 4,600-acre ranch in Colorado $. # x27 ; s debut 1972 album Greetings from Asbury Park, N.J. company, offering customers end-to-end solutions buying. S brass center on majority owner Jay Sugarman, sporting Director Ernst Tanner, and for the family. In the tri-state area jay sugarman hamptons house have a nice thing to say about ownership and... Plaza Hotel allowed for a 1936 house in Palm Beach take a.. Sold a 4,600-acre ranch in Colorado for $ 44.79 million to Michael Sills, of! Is roughly $ 13+ million in usable material equity behind the facadeWhy doesnt he want finish... Take a date you forgot to add that just spending money doesnt mean success is a jay sugarman hamptons house paid then-record... On the market in 2009 with an asking price of $ 300m of money Ernst Tanner, and today. Evolution of ground leases Your favorite networks a landmarked building next to the evolution of ground leases every. In 2017, Jay launched Safehold to modernize the ground lease business and do for buildings net... Have a nice thing to say about ownership house 20 Sep 2021 0 0 for... Views of the reasons the Union & # x27 ; s debut 1972 album Greetings from Asbury,. Virgin Mother sculpture things ; its free tool for real estate company creating... And presented the idea of Museum Open house to Michael Bloomberg percent of the reasons the Academy. This is knowable ( shades of Donny Rumsfeld here ), but it very!