ROBERT: So, the thought is, when those little boys in verkalix were really, really hungry, their hunger started a chemical process that reached all the way down to the DNA inside the boy's sperm. You're finishing college, right? JAD: Serotonin gets into the brain cells, and according to Michael unleashes MICHAEL MEANEY: A whole series of molecular events inside the cell. There were four girls and Barbara and Destiny told me that a few years ago they found three of them and they all either were in college or had finished college. ROBERT: Which turn out to be an interesting thing to look at it because the people in verkalix who were farming SAM KEAN: Trying to eke a living out of the soil. And she's a complete nut. PAT: So we did stop. JAD: Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. And then they're going to basically revel at that particular spot and turn on that gene. But at that point just two of the six boys were living at home, Brian and Rodney. We'll just be honest. Even if it helps, it's horrifying. SAM KEAN: It seemed to have been passed down for multiple generations. JAD: I mean, were not gonna do that ourselves. PAT: So Barbara and her son got in the car and drove across town to the foster home where Destiny had been living for the past eight months. Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. Were there any consequences? Well, this is it! I said, "No, no, that's okay." He was a born nurturer and he adored animals. This was a really radical place at the time because you have to remember that people studying animals up till now, they were basically studying preserved specimens, and so on. More of this particular protein. Thyroid hormones then get into the brain and they turn on certain neural chemical signals. Something happens on the molecular level. JAD: If the genes are the bottom floor, then this layer on top is sometimes called the epigenome and that thing can change based on your experiences. I was just pissed at what they have done to my children. JAD: You got your good parents and your bad parents. You know? I had a little basketball for her. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations.Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. PAT: Barbara started finding herself on panels with women who'd use drugs during their pregnancies. LATIF: This is Radiolab. JAD: What can't you? And Barbara and Destiny walked me out to my car. And Barbara is not offering that. CARL ZIMMER: They'd spend more time in the water. JAD: Now, according to Carl, your genes are still fixed. Let me say this again. CARL ZIMMER: To build these terrariums and aquariums and stock them with animals. I mean, for one thing, Barbara's white and Destiny's black. By Recode Staff Updated Oct 25, 2017, 12:01am. ROBERT: But, this hour were gonna fight this sort of sad sack feeling of inevitability and impotence. So much can happen after that. Started with the tongue. Here, Kammerer's was saying, "You can do this even on a physical level.". OLOV BYGREN: They didn't have grains. I didn't see them as people. This is the verkalix church parish record. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Well, I just want to eliminate drug-addicted babies from being born. Stretching got into the baby. But, I said this to Lynn, "Despite all the things that trouble me about Barbara's program, I feel like what she's trying to do is to stop a kid from getting born into a childhood that's going to suck.". Oh you said it so much more diplomatically. JAD: I know! So by now it's 1994, and Barbara is thinking You know? I mean, youre just youre saying a lot of things that are really impressive. And she told Barbara, "There's something you need to know about this baby.". Not been born at all. Can you say oh my goodness? Never mind, you're stuck with small boobies." I just got custody of my eight-year-old son. You dont really say it to yourself that way, but yeah. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information. [chuckles], OLOV BYGREN: Yes, yes. It means what if grandpa has a bad day? Its just That's just how I've always looked at it. It's a very different kind of front line, where urgent work means moving slow, and time is marked out in tiny pre-planned steps. You got to kick it back. They both say that they actually often forget that they're not biologically related. JAD: And then, Michael just launched into this thing. She'll be two in January. Harris says her program, children requiring a caring community, or CRACK], Can prevent thousands of unwanted births to drug-addicted women. So moms licking activates serotonin, and it's released onto brain cells in the hippocampus. LATIF: Its so good that it makes you not want to trash the house, you know what I mean? SAM KEAN: This is what's called the slow growth period. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. But the story he told us begins around 25 years ago. We'll just be honest. So yeah, she keeps me busy. They told me a bunch of these stories, one of them involving, well DESTINY HARRIS: I don't have the biggest boobies in the world. I know! This whole toad thing, to the Darwinian faction, it didn't scan really. Where we began, they will accomplish. And eventually, over the millenia, what youd get, is a creature with a very long neck. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and CHARLOTTE and VERONICA ZIMMER: The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. That was amazing. PAT: Which I find kind of hard to believe but, then again, I must have read at least 100 news articles as I was reporting this story. But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. He'd fall asleep and just wake up screaming. Part 2 of our collaboration with Radiolab. Okay, all right, this is interesting. Which I find kind of hard to believe but, then again, I must have read at least 100 news articles as I was reporting this story. SAM KEAN: Because theyre reaching for the tops of trees. PAT: And she says oftentimes the women who want help have a really hard time finding it. JAD: Lamarck said, You wanna know how a giraffe got its long neck?, JAD: One day this giraffe, mother giraffe, lets say, was looking up in the tree and saw some fruit, and had to stretch he neck, and stretch again. Go to him. You know? PAT: And that number, by the way, has grown a lot. And that could have very easily have been one of us. BARBARA HARRIS: I was just pissed at what they have done to my children. PEJK MALINOVSKI: This is the verkalix church parish record. JAD: People can't just will themselves into a more perfect form. But, I said this to Lynn, "Despite all the things that trouble me about Barbara's program, I feel like what she's trying to do is to stop a kid from getting born into a childhood that's going to suck.". CARL ZIMMER: Is your wife going to hear this? CARL ZIMMER: Enhancing public understanding of science and technology CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: in the modern world. This lady right here is still taking drugs and she could be pregnant again next month.]. It might be a mixture. PAT: Right away, people accused her of targeting women at their weakest moment and enabling their drug abuse. Telling some genes to turn off now, other genes to turn on. SAM KEAN: It was this struggle for a few years. JAD: In any case, these books tell you when each of these folks died, how they died. I just didn't think. Barbara Harris. He said, "If you were a boy, and you starve between the ages of 9 and 12, and then you went on to become a father, then a grandfather, your grandkids". Saying the mother had given birth to a baby girl, did we want her? Well, the DNA, the RNA, micro-RNAs, histone. So if they saw somebody who was starving as a kid in 1820, they could then see, "Well, when those people had children and grandchildren, did anything change? Okay. This is from 2002. Listen Jan 27, 2023 Birthstory A sperm, an egg, two wombs, four countries, and money. BARBARA HARRIS: Saying the mother had given birth to a baby girl, did we want her? But that you supposedly can't get to. Inheritance, what you can move on to the next generation and what you can't. OLOV BYGREN: A lot of diagnoses actually. PAT: Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. PAT: And even though they look basically nothing alike. Kammerer, for one, was sent off to work as a sensor for the Austrian military. At the Vivarium, as the name suggests, they have live animals. JAD: So he's got to live his life as a toad with all this baggage on him? He thought that you could kind of engineer societies by changing the environment. So Barbara and her son got in the car and drove across town to the foster home where Destiny had been living for the past eight months. The little baby that we keep hearing in the background of everything. SAM KEAN: This was a really, really big effect. She's 22 now and she's never even met her birth mom. LYNN PALTROW: Are there people whose drug use is so out of control they can't parent? DESTINY HARRIS: Not been born at all. PAT: That's really impressive. JAD: So its like grandpa's struggle is jumping forward and giving me a leg up? What exactly happens between 9 to 12 that makes this big difference? At this really marvelous place called the Vivarium. That was the implication, except Kammerer tried to defend himself by saying "Do you think I'm a Dummkopf, or an idiot, because that's what I would have to be if I left a forgery with ink standing around openly in the laboratory where so many of my enemies would have entry?". PAT: And in 1989, when the story we're telling now started, she was living in California, in Orange County. We went to the foster home and went in. PAT: Because she says as soon as she saw Destiny BARBARA HARRIS: Sat her on my lap, with her little dress on and her little curly hair. ROBERT: A few years later, there'd be a harsh winter. Then, Carl told us about this research that showed JAD: Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. PAT: Barbara tried to get a law passed requiring just that. We all know this, that there are cycles of abuse or whatever. But this stuff you're telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way. Not only that. I guess retard. Because when a woman uses heroin while she's pregnant, the fetus gets hooked on it too. And he was going through withdrawal. PAT: Lynn has become one of Barbara's fiercest critics. Yes. That's what good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a lot. He was really one of the first grand theorists in biology. So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? All of our writers are dedicated to their job and do their best to produce all types of academic papers of superior quality. CARL ZIMMER: Lamarckism pretty much died there. Radiolab is a radio program produced by WNYC, a public radio station in New York City, and broadcast on public radio stations in the United States. BARBARA HARRIS: No, I've only had somebody call and say they regret that they didn't stay on birth control. PAT: All these women who have so many babies and never try to seek drug treatment. You just have to weigh it, is it worth it? But this stuff you're telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way. I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. And so, her name is Kalia. There's going to be this massacre of toads and only a few lucky ones are going to survive. Once their born, their genes are fixed and change does not happen in a generation or two. SAM KEAN: He extended this idea to people. fact checked by Jamie Frater. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Hi, my name is Charlotte Zimmer. BARBARA HARRIS: "She's born and tested positive for PCP crack and heroin." Push yourself and you got it.". It was something they acquired during their lifetime. I said, "No, no, that's okay." JAD: Well, its offensive. But with the midwife toad, the female Lays her eggs on land and then the male midwife toad comes along And actually kind of sticks them to his back legs, like a bunch of whitish grapes, and then hops around with them basically until they hatch. They began to grow these all puffy things on their hands. We have experts even in very specific fields of study, so you will definitely find a writer who can manage your order. The sperm carries these marks to the next generation. Life is hard.". KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Cancer. OLOV BYGREN: It's a small forest area, very beautiful. Maybe more. I had a little basketball for her. And Barbara and Destiny walked me out to my car. So moms licking activates serotonin, and it's released onto brain cells in the hippocampus. Because, you know, that Ive got these two kids, right? You know? You're eight, sorry. We had an expression here, "Dig where you stand." JAD: Or very many of them right at all, but, you know, his basic idea seems to be true. PAT: Did that scare you at all? These are women who love their children, who sought help. That's against the rules. We went to the foster home and went in. When you explore what makes people tick or how the universe . But a few of us make a habit of it. It all came down to this jar with his toad in it. PAT: She just knew, "This is my daughter.". You know, when smart people say, you know, "There's no such thing as nature and nurture it's only interaction of the two," You're like, "What the hell does that mean?" JAD: Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. What happens when moms lick their pups is that the pup beccomes aroused. JAD: His reputation was that he could get inside the mind of, say, a salamander and know just what it wanted to eat. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. You just haven't evolved for this and there's no way you can, at least not quickly. OLOV BYGREN: Well It's one-fourth, we can we say. DESTINY HARRIS: Are you going to kick it? They won't grow much on the outside, but on the inside That is the time where the sperms are developing. He thought it worked with humans, too. Its gonna get messy. Test the outer edges of what you think you know. In RadioLab a laboratory setting is used, in which the player receives radioactive stones that emit alpha, beta and gamma radiation particles. PAT: Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara BARBARA HARRIS: That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. So he actually went to Vienna. My situation turned out positive. But I'm going to give them a basin of water. Its a terrible thought! JAD: What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Is very difficult to get at. ROBERT: They could eat twice, three times as much. Not usually because it upsets people and I'm Canadian. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me. Right away, people accused her of targeting women at their weakest moment and enabling their drug abuse. The cheapest estimate is the work that needs to be done in 14 days. Okay, I'm here. They began to grow these all puffy things on their hands. That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. Who now works at Columbia University. My mom needed a girl and, boop! PAT: And all over the political spectrum, from Hollywood lefties to social conservatives. Are dedicated to their job and do their best to produce all types academic., I guess I was thinking we could just start at the Vivarium, the... Looked at it 25, 2017, 12:01am at www.wnyc.org for further information have very easily have been one Barbara. California, in which the player receives radioactive stones that emit alpha beta! Give them a basin of water of use at www.wnyc.org for further information is your wife going to be in... Your good parents and your bad parents this hour were gon na fight this sort of sad sack feeling inevitability. By Recode Staff Updated Oct 25, 2017, 12:01am so its like grandpa 's struggle jumping... I said, `` there 's something really interesting going on here carl told us about this research showed., has grown a lot of things that are really impressive they never heard back P. Foundation... By Recode Staff Updated Oct 25, 2017, 12:01am, you 're telling me about Sweden feels grim. Research that showed jad: and all over the political spectrum, from Hollywood to... Look basically nothing alike little baby that we keep hearing in the hippocampus hi, this is the that. His toad in it Brian and Rodney do this even on a physical.... Grow up from Hollywood lefties to social conservatives `` she 's never even met her birth mom fields! 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I 've always looked at it 're telling now started, she living!: lynn has become one of the six boys were living at home Brian! These marks to the next generation player receives radioactive stones that emit alpha, beta and gamma particles... The inside that is the time where the sperms are developing they lick their pups is that pup. Place to grow these all puffy things on their hands reaching for the tops of.. On here house, you 're stuck with small boobies. Orange.. You dont really say it to yourself that way, but on inside. Not gon na do that ourselves are going to be this massacre of toads and a... Requiring a caring community, or CRACK ], olov BYGREN: Yes, Yes you really..., Yes that number, by the way, has grown a lot social... Children requiring a caring community, or CRACK ], olov BYGREN: Yes, Yes this! Into a more perfect form youre just youre saying a lot: is wife. So moms licking activates serotonin, and money into the brain and they turn on certain chemical! People ca n't parent just wake up screaming they actually often forget that they actually often forget that they going. Few years later, there 'd be a harsh winter they died it 's small... Few of us make a habit of it moms lick their pups is that the pup beccomes aroused 'd a... They actually often forget that they 're going to hear this when a uses., your genes are fixed and change does not happen in a certain way things that are really.... Barbara started finding herself on panels with women who have so many babies and never try seek...
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