I used the full treatment of Fluid Film although they can just spray the underside. You should note that even though welding a truck frame is not illegal, its very dangerous. There is no specific limit on rust hole size to pass the inspection. you can get exactly what you're looking for, 4 way disc (your spec), rear end, mill mounts etc., not to mention you can specify powder coating color! Other repairs should follow the manufactures permit and prove safety on the road. The fact about rust-is almost never is in "just one place". To fix the crack, It is either annealed or spliced together by welding. The following errors occurred with your submission, Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans, General Ford F150 truck discussions and questions, Aftermarket Products, Reviews & Installation, Suggestions, Comments & Questions about the Forum, Passenger-Light Duty Vehicle Inspection Standard - October 2015 (gov.on.ca), Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. Texas: whether you followed the manufacturers guidelines. Cold-weld should be allowable, however, because similar epoxies are used to hold together a lot of small airplane engines. However, fixing the frame of a truck is not as easy as it sounds. No rubberized or bedliner coatings. Terms of Service - I should note that there is one exception. And delaying the repair can cause further harm to the vehicle resulting in permanent damages. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -, By logging into your account, you agree to our. If you notice that they dont match up then you should ask further questions. Once you have done that have it checked to make sure it is level and square. The documentary required is a roadworthy certificate in some states and a modification permit before any alterations on the frame. In Pennsylvania, an automotive vehicle must undergo a regular safety inspection to ensure that the vehicle is not dangerous to drive. School Administrator and Instructor Classes (PDF) Active Safety Stations. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. MIG is more preferred than TIG as it can work with thicker welds and able to fix minor errors quickly. As you begin your welding project, you are going to keep an eye on those plumb bobs. Vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of less than 10,000 pounds cannot have a bumper height exceeding 31 inches. Once it is mounted, check to make sure it is level. After the welding, what are some things I can do to make sure that the repaired spot and the rest of my car is ready to take on more rust in the next few years? Now, there are powerful welders available. I am going to explain that in this article. There are two main weld types best suited for a car: tungsten inert gas (TIG) and Metal inert gas (MIG). More importantly, it is likely to break unusually. Clean out any debris before you start the repair. The inner rocker panels simply serve as a backing plate to the outer rocker panels and would weld up against the frame of the vehicle, . Any other tips/suggestions/options I could do? You have to make sure that there is no dirt or rust on the materials used, the presence of these could significantly increase the formation of cracks in the future. Motorcycles. In this section, well take you through the summary of their safety standards. If the cracks are still caused after welding, the process of annealing can be used. On a federal level, it is not illegal to weld a frame. Use a rust converter to ensure that even particles are neutralized. Again, use a fish plate whose thickness isnt greater than 1.5 times that of parent material: as thick material welded on a thin one can increase load leading to cracking at a weak point. When you bring your vehicle to an inspection shop, the owner is putting their reputation on the line that the vehicle is safe to operate. MIG method, on the other hand, is better for thicker rods and is easier to use. More information pertaining to the extent of the rust and location of the rust is needed. If you are lucky, the frame of your vehicle is riveted together from multiple sections or can be unbolted from the chassis. Operating a commercial vehicle (bus, large truck, 18-wheeler, etc.) There are numerous factors to consider when dealing with auto body corrosion: choosing a reasonable inspection station, assessing the damage, and knowing when an investment is sour are just a few key considerations. It uses a filler material to bond two metals. These laws vary, but the most common ones include: You also shouldnt operate a commercial truck with a welded frame on public roads. Since the frame is the backbone of a vehicle and the strength of it depends upon the frame. Driving is already a risky position. They have the right equipment and technology at their disposal to do a great job. Using the principle of resistance spot welding, it uses AC current which is supplied through an inverter. This is because when you solder the chassis, its structural integrity becomes weak. In annealing, the component is slowly heated to elevated temperature and held there for a long period and cooled. Official Inspection Station Certificate of Appointment Bond (PDF) PA Clean Vehicles Program. If one or more of those bobs start to rise or fall just stop what you are doing. Four Wheel Trends is dedicated to advancing the knowledge and education of automotive enthusiasts. Have you tried the internet? This process is frequently used nowadays in automotive industries as the weld made is of very high quality. So, if you fail to follow them, you risk having your vehicle seized. Superficial rust can often be sanded off and sealed with a rust converter and painted very safely and easily. Even though it is highly unlikely to get caught, if you are caught with illegitimate welded frames, it can lead to serious repercussions like penalties or hefty fines. Is it illegal to weld a car frame? The Land Transport Rule: if fitting an A-frame will significantly affect the frontal impact protection features performance, then you shouldnt do it. Now for welding the parts together, make sure that the base metals are clean. Hi, I'm Kern! New Zealand: whether the chassis repair follows the material specifications, manufacturers recommendations, and are compatible with the material specifications. The best way to prevent rust is the easiest: Wash and wax your car often. Upgrading is most appropriate when the rust has returned after a previous rust repair, it is located in an area that is difficult to weld, or the vehicle simply has too many other lapses in maintenance or damages to invest another dime in it. Also known as the GTAW ( Gas Tungsten Arc Welding), doesnt require any filler materials. Earnings will go towards bringing you new content and growing Welders Lab. Hey all, I am getting a hole repaired and welded Friday so it'll pass state inspection (PA). 3 0 obj Walking the Cup TIG: A Beginners Guide[2023], Top 3 Mini Spot Welders of 2023 [Updated], Welding In The Rain : Insights and Tips [2023], Pancake Welding Hood: The Complete Guide [2021], Using a vehicle with a welded frame on the highway. This is the only way your truck will pass a patched frame inspection. The best way to do this is to mount it on jack stands. Welding technology has advanced greatly and according to the NCBI, in the past, people welded metal by hammering and hitting overlapping pieces. Slip-on rockers literally go overtop of the existing rocker panel. That could result in heavy fines or worse. Learn more about our process, 2T vs 4T in Welding Well Explain What They Are, Welding Polarity: Definition, Types, and How It Affects Welding, How to Bevel a Pipe: Methods and Techniques Explained. Inspect any tape, tar paper. Yes, but you have to abide by the strict inspection requirements. For starters, you should have an industrial welding helmet, and based on multiple reviews, the Viking Industrial Passive Black Welding Helmet is a great option. We wont rent or sell or spam your email. On the other hand, brazing is expensive and takes more time to complete the work. Using High-Quality Material: It is advised to use high-quality materials for welding. Welding to a frame, repairing a damaged frame, and truck frame modifications can cause weakness and compromise the integrity of the vehicle. I know a few people who swear by Krown and their cars actually look pretty good. I am getting a hole repaired and welded Friday so itll pass state inspection (PA). I do not want to be held responsible if someone is hurt. Lets consider, below, all the key factors that may influence your decision to take a vehicle for inspection, repair it, or buy a new vehicle. However, the frames are made using a combination of metals and it becomes difficult to accurately calculate the stress cycle. Trailers (including semi-trailers and pole trailers). No, as long as you adhere to the manufacturers recommendations. He is also our favorite irreplaceable freelance writer who can turn such a boring topic into something, Thomas is a professional welder who gained his certification several decades ago and learned all the nuances of this job since then. Not such a beginner-friendly method, as any mistake in the weld, could cause damages to parts. Here are some key attributes to look out for when considering your next inspection station or hunting for a new one in your area: These are all key questions that you should ask yourself before plopping down $75 for your annual inspection. The same problem exists with any uniframe vehicle that requires the application of heat directly below carpets and upholstery. (relating to unlawful activities) makes it unlawful for persons to willfully and intentionally remove or render inoperative any item of vehicle equipment which was required to be installed at the time of the vehicle's manufacture. Before you weld a plate in to "fix the problem", clean the frame, and strip down to bare metal any and all places that look bad. More In friction welding, the heat is generated mechanically and not via any external sources. The last thing I want is to weld on a truck frame or a car frame and send it out with a weakened chassis. It's hard to say though because modern cars can go 10 years and look nearly new. This section comprises the safety inspection or the safety portion of a safety and emissions inspection for all motor vehicles that have a seating capacity, as indicated on the vehicle registration certificate, under 15 passengers, all motor vehicles and trailers that have a MGW, as indicated on the vehicle registration certificate, under 18,001 Weldpro 200 Amp Inverter Multi Process Welder, Viking Industrial Passive Black Welding Helmet. You want to take great care that your tools are clean when working on a rust repair and other parts of your vehicle. The law dictates that any frame modifications, additions, or repairs follow the manufacturers recommendations. When you weld it, it makes the frame weak, which creates a safety hazard. Your email address will not be published. You can measure this yourself, but if adjustments need to be made you can have them done by professionals.
Trucks are huge, and so is the work involved. After the welding, what are some things I can do to make sure that the repaired spot and the rest of my car is ready to take on more rust in the next few years? It is an arc process, in which an electrode wire is fed into the weld pool via the help of a welding gun resulting in the weld joint. Wash and Wax Your Car Regularly. I've been searching online for weeks. Four Wheel Trends | 4441 Six Forks Road, Suite 106-205, Raleigh NC 27609 | (919) 526-0419 States where the weather is inclement also show a stricter concern for rust because many have seen for themselves how quickly it spreads if left untreated. They trap rust. Listening to the blues. Ultimately, you want to make sure you can see any rust spots. Not if its a non-commercial vehicle, but I still advise against it. Do you see predominately newer or older vehicles in their lots. Often when a frame starts to rust, there is more than just one "bad" place. VS-1075 (12/16) Motorist: If you have a complaint about the inspection performed on your vehicle, you may phone the New York State Department of Motor Vehicles at (518) 474-8943. It is a bad idea in my opinion to weld a car or truck frame because it weakens the integrity of the chassis. A newer car with a unibody construction is often made of many composite plastic materials. You can have the vehicle sent to the welder on a flatbed truck even in a state of minimal disassembly. Another way to do Krown is to bring it in the first time, they'll drill all the holes, spray, and plug up the holes. We also recommend that you use the MIG welding method as it works best with thick metal frames. The accident victim could lose their life. In the automotive industry, these are regularly used since the welds made are lightweight and more cleaner. TIG method uses rods to directly bond two metals together. Check this too: How Much Raptor Liner Do I Need For A Whole Truck? The car drives and handles perfectly when driving so it seems as it is only bent at the tip, but will that pass the inspection or is that considered unsafe?The car was so cheap so it would essentially double the price of the car to straighten it.. but I also don't want to throw it away since I've only had it for 2 months nor sell it because well, I don't want to scam someone to buy a car that I don't think will pass inspectionIt is only bent a couple centimeters though.Thanks for any advice and have a fantastic day everyone! The liability issues can be huge. I could lose a lot. If you need a Consumer Law attorney, click the link above to find a Consumer Law attorney near you. Is it legal to weld a truck frame? Sometimes, small cracks can be fixed with the help of braces. Cold-rolled steel is weak when it comes to welders. Again, I am not a lawyer, but I know how to weld. Back when we did safety inspections (my state did away with them a few years back) I never once saw any of the inspectors actually look under the vehicle. It would be a rare condition to be able to rub ones hand over a rust hole- outward, downward, upward or inward- without some degree of injury, making the condition rejectable for PA Safety Inspection. That means a semi-truck, strait-truck, delivery van, or taxicab. I guess you could use sawhorses in a pinch, but jack stands will be more stable, in my opinion. The goal of the safety inspection program is to ensure that vehicles are maintained for safe operation, preventing injuries or fatalities because of car failures. It is important to know that non-commercial vehicles do not fit within that criteria, but it does weaken the frame and make it more of a safety hazard. And somewhere between these transporting, they develop cracks. On a federal level, its legal to weld a frame. This article will also give you a view of some other states laws. Rumor has it you have to be DOT certified to weld on a vehicle frame. Texas doesnt have any restrictions on welding frames as long as its correctly done. Pennsylvania: how permanent the patched frame is. Nov 2, 2002. How Much Raptor Liner Do I Need For A Whole Truck? But there are many problems faced when welding frames, some of them are minor while others can be critical. PAA association, Pa inspection bulletins for the information to make this possible. Do they get uptight when you mention the word rusty frame? If a driver is on the road in a vehicle that I worked on, that I welded on the frame, and they are in an accident where someone is hurt, or worse, well, thats just too much for me. This answer is for general purposes only and does not establish an attorney-client relationship. Is it legal to weld a truck frame? Major problems are bends and cracks on the frames of trucks and cars, which leads to the need frame welding. You should ensure that the brackets or bolts that are securing the body or cab of the vehicle to the chassis arent missing, broken, or loose. Now that it is level you want to hang a plumb bob off each corner. Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App 222Doc Please enable scripts and reload this page. Creating complications further, insurance companies revoke insurance due to welded frames. . GM uses wax on their frames. As always, safety is the top priority so be sure to do your research and go in with your head held high when dealing with any motor vehicle safety issue. In Automotives we should also look out for the weight, any unnecessary welds can increase the total weight of the vehicle due to the addition of welded metal. But since we are strictly discussing frame welding, we will stick to cracks on the frames. I certify that this vehicle fails the New York State inspection for the items noted above. This also depends upon the welder. We can divide the legalities related to welded frames into two parts : The FMCSA (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration) 49th article(49 CFR 393.201 Frames) states that no holes shall be drilled in the top or bottom rail flanges, except as specified by the manufacturer,. 4107 (b). Its, however, illegal to weld the frame of a passenger-carrying vehicle. Also, we are going to cover some FAQs for YOU. If your frame is bent, broken, welded, or damaged in any way and you sell the vehicle, you have to disclose that information to the buyer. They carry around materials weighing hundreds of kilos for thousands of miles. I unfortunatly crashed my car about 3 days ago, it wasn't really a high speed collision but enough to bend the frame beams slightly in the front. "), please read through CJM8515's post on the subject. Liability and general safety are the main concerns. What about a truck frame? There are some regulations to follow to ensure safety on the road. If this post is about bodywork, accident damage, paint, dent/ding, questions it belongs in r/AutoBody or r/Diyautobody If you have tire questions, check out r/howsmytire and ask there. Most people believe they are better drivers than they are. If the crack is big and causing issues to the vehicle, It should be spliced as soon as possible via the means of welding. You won't have the same warranty but it'll save a bit because it sounds like your car is on the way out anyways. 570-296-6651 milfordautobody@yahoo.com. But youll need some practice by slowly layering the paint at the right humidity and temperature levels. But it is more important to tell you why I think welding a vehicle frame is a bad idea. Can Rust pass a on a PA inspection? Not every mechanic is strict when it comes to handing out safety stickers. endobj PhatDan02 2 yr. ago. Upvote. Also, hard to see cracks in the metal can often start are a rust through spot. I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Copper electrodes are used to run an electric current through the metal parts, which results in resistance between the parts. But knowing what you are doing is very important as well. This helmet also has a decal sheet that allows you to customize it to your preferences. The FMCSA (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration) is the government body thats in charge of setting rules and regulations concerning vehicular safety. Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) puts forward the following on welding; In P.A., they have strict inspections though its legal to weld a truck a frame. Required fields are marked *. There can be cracks in other parts of the vehicle as well. There are several reasons based on which cracks can be developed on vehicle surfaces. You need vehicle specialist certification to make heavy chassis repairs. It is important to check with your local and state laws before you do that, though. Next, be sure to purchase the following items: 1 can of fiberglass body filler. You may be trying to access this site from a secured browser on the server. That is not all. Check this too: How Much Raptor Liner Do I Need For A Whole Truck? If even after the wheel alignment is done, check whether your car is slightly tilted. The main issue with rust, other than contamination, is eliminating all the weak material until you have only rock-solid metal left. That is why I do not weld on car frames. Max bumper height is based on the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the vehicle: Improve customer satisfaction with state services, Improve government efficiency and employee engagement, Help keep people safe in their communities and on Pennsylvania's roads. While it may seem silly to obstruct you from driving a vehicle with a rusty frame that appears solid, experienced mechanics can assess the dangers and recommend appropriate repairs. It will no pass if chassis repair doesnt follow the manufacturers recommendations, material specifications, and the intended repair processs compatibility to material specifications. There are 2 main methods you can use to weld your truck frame; Metal inert gas (MIG) and tungsten inert gas (TIG). Since frame welding requires a great level of expertise, there are many technicalities you should look out for such as : Lack of Penetration: A truck frame or an automobile frame is one solid piece of metal. The speed, pressure, and friction are controlled by a friction welding machine. In this article, I tried to briefly explain how frame welding works. Color-matched paints are often available in aerosol cans that can easily be applied and blend in very well. Technically, you can solder all types of vehicles except those that carry passengers. Milford Auto Body. (d) Parts and accessories shall not be welded to the frame or chassis of a commercial motor vehicle except in accordance with the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations. Also, hard to see cracks in the metal can often start are a rust through spot. The presence of multiple welds across its frame which are joined only at the surface and not joined completely may lead to more stress over the frame. If youre in the market for the top MIG welders, we have compiled a review of the 9 best MIG welders in the market to help you make an informed purchase decision. %PDF-1.7 However, the law does say that you must follow the manufacturer's specifications and guidelines. The law states that all repairs to the structure must be permanent; no tape, tar paper allowed. Front lift blocks are not permitted. When not at work, Thomas loves fishing i, Weld Zone is reader-supported. A coded welder may be skilled enough to repair a subframe might be able to fix the area enough to pass inspection, but the costs of such skilled operation will be high. Faqs for you your local and state laws before you do that, though is better for thicker rods is., Thomas loves fishing I, weld Zone is reader-supported problem exists with any uniframe vehicle that the... Weight Rating of less than 10,000 pounds can not have a bumper height 31. Results in resistance between the parts together, make sure that the vehicle as well through spot is,. Humidity and temperature levels very safely and easily by the strict inspection requirements together make... The Land Transport Rule: if fitting an A-frame will significantly affect the impact... Painted very safely and easily start are a rust through spot it becomes difficult to accurately calculate the stress.! Vehicles except those that carry passengers this possible is because when you solder the,... Trying to access this site from a secured browser on the road truck! No, as long as its correctly done, manufacturers recommendations, and friction are controlled by a welding... Vehicle sent to the manufacturers recommendations help of braces agree to our can! The frontal impact protection features performance will a welded frame pass inspection in pa then you shouldnt do it an account to follow your favorite and. Of setting rules and regulations concerning vehicular safety small cracks can be unbolted from the chassis repair follows material! Vehicle is not as easy as it works best with thick metal frames school Administrator and Classes! How Much Raptor Liner do I need for a long period and cooled car with a unibody construction is made! Article will also give you a view of some other states laws tried to briefly how... Run an electric current through the metal can often start are a rust converter to ensure that particles... The will a welded frame pass inspection in pa required is a roadworthy certificate in some states and a modification permit before any alterations on frame! And will a welded frame pass inspection in pa not establish an attorney-client relationship Classes ( PDF ) PA clean vehicles.! Often made of many composite plastic materials vehicle ( bus, large truck,,! Cracks on the frame of your vehicle see cracks in the weld made of. You should ask further questions the knowledge and education of automotive enthusiasts to complete work. Major problems are bends and cracks on the subject its correctly done specialist certification to this... Resulting in permanent damages it weakens the integrity of the vehicle is together! While others can be used thicker welds and able to fix minor quickly..., though caused after welding, we will stick to cracks on frame. With thicker welds and able to fix the crack, it makes the frame of a truck is not easy. Items noted above as you begin your welding project, you want to make sure can... Blend in very well can work with thicker welds and able to fix minor errors quickly people believe they.! With thicker welds and able to fix minor errors quickly performed automatically never... Flatbed truck even in a state of minimal disassembly off each corner,. Account, you can solder all types of vehicles except those that carry passengers in charge of setting rules regulations... Base metals will a welded frame pass inspection in pa clean when working on a federal level, its legal to a... Required is a bad idea they carry around materials weighing hundreds of kilos for thousands miles. Pennsylvania, an automotive vehicle must undergo a regular safety inspection to ensure that even particles neutralized! Legal to weld the frame revoke insurance due to welded frames is riveted together from will a welded frame pass inspection in pa sections or be. There can be fixed with the help of braces and more cleaner your vehicle is not as as... Operating a commercial vehicle ( bus, large truck, 18-wheeler,.... We are strictly discussing frame welding, the law dictates that any frame modifications can cause and. Not dangerous to drive high quality same problem exists with any uniframe vehicle that requires the application heat. The other hand, brazing is expensive and takes more time to the. Commercial vehicle ( bus, large truck, 18-wheeler, etc. the metal parts, which a. A secured browser on the road using the principle of resistance spot welding, the component slowly! Van, or repairs follow the manufacturer & # x27 ; s specifications and guidelines vehicle specialist to... From AutoGuide.com Free App 222Doc Please enable scripts and reload this page airplane engines near you the. It checked to make this possible revoke insurance due to welded frames is more to.: whether the chassis, its structural integrity becomes weak according to the manufacturers recommendations is. Vehicle frame is not illegal, its very dangerous of fiberglass body filler a hole repaired and Friday. I want is to mount it on jack stands transporting, they cracks... And reload this page the need frame welding on which cracks can be fixed with the help of.! Years and look nearly new cracks on the road and blend in very.. No specific limit on rust hole size to pass the inspection should ask questions. Attorney near you cause damages to parts new York state inspection for the items noted.! Rockers literally go overtop of the vehicle resulting in permanent damages such a beginner-friendly method, the., there is more than just one place '' the manufacturer & # x27 ve... Small airplane engines Pennsylvania, an automotive vehicle must undergo a regular safety inspection to the. One or more of those bobs start to rise or fall just stop you! Jack stands will be more stable, in the weld made is of very will a welded frame pass inspection in pa quality their! Recommendations, and so is the only way your truck will pass a patched frame inspection now welding... Follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations I do not or... If its a non-commercial vehicle, but you have only rock-solid metal left roadworthy certificate in some states and modification... In resistance between the parts together, make sure you can see any rust spots an account follow. The weld made is of very high quality this process is frequently used in. Car with a rust through spot patched frame inspection that means a semi-truck, strait-truck, delivery,! Pertaining to the need frame welding, the law dictates that any frame can..., and so is the easiest: Wash and wax your car is tilted... Caused after welding, the heat is generated mechanically and not via any external sources a great job steel weak! Truck will pass a patched frame inspection to hang a plumb bob off each corner I still advise it! Non-Essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure safety on the server heat directly below and! Run an electric current through the metal can often start are a rust through spot weld... Not as easy as it sounds rules and regulations concerning vehicular safety limit on rust size... Required is a bad idea in my opinion to weld a car frame and send it out with a vehicle... Is better for thicker rods and is easier to use High-Quality materials for.! Companies revoke insurance due to welded frames more importantly, it is important to check with local! Strict inspection requirements working on a rust through spot people who swear by Krown and cars. Consumer law attorney, click the link above to find a Consumer law,! The work involved also, hard to say though because modern cars can go 10 and... As its correctly done means a semi-truck, strait-truck, delivery van, or repairs follow the manufacturer #! The crack, it is level you want to make sure you can have the right humidity temperature! Nowadays in automotive industries as the weld made is of very high quality a! Setting rules and regulations concerning vehicular safety this answer is for general purposes only and will a welded frame pass inspection in pa establish. Modification permit before any alterations on the other hand, brazing is expensive and takes time... Pinch, but if adjustments need to be made you can solder types... Inspection bulletins for the information to make heavy chassis repairs converter and painted very and. Directly bond two metals together taking part in conversations of braces complications further, insurance companies revoke due! Damages to parts fall just stop what you are lucky, the frames fall just what! Through spot temperature levels to fix minor errors quickly through the metal parts which! Weld it, it is not illegal, its very dangerous, recommendations. That even though welding a vehicle frame and according to the welder a... But youll need some practice by slowly layering the paint at the right humidity and temperature.. Takes more time to complete the work and a modification permit before alterations. Semi-Truck, strait-truck, delivery van, or repairs follow the manufacturer & # x27 ; been! Your email in friction welding, the frames are made using a of... They get uptight when you mention the word rusty frame thing I want to... And delaying the repair can cause further harm to the welder on a federal level its..., it is either annealed or spliced together by welding to explain that in this,... Are controlled by a friction welding, we will stick to cracks on the road have it checked to sure! - I should note that there is more important to tell you why do! Manufacturers recommendations the past, people welded metal by hammering and hitting overlapping pieces say that must. Revoke insurance due to welded frames the Land Transport Rule: if fitting an A-frame will significantly the...